Access problems at MERSTHAM

[Roger Cook]

Today I met one of the landowners from the sensitive area in Surrey.
We had a very lengthy conversation about the problems at Merstham.
The problems extend from everyone using the land with out obtaining
permission first.
WCMS claim to have control of the access rights, but have never had
any agreements allowing them the privilage. They are hanging on to an
agreement that a disbanded group had with one of the previous owners
some 19 years before WCMS's formation.
WCMS have been asked for any copies of permissions they had, and the
landowners would like to know exactly what WCMS used the property for,
but WCMS will not send them anything.

Unfortunately WCMS (having been found to be no more than common
trespassers) can not find any agreements from these people, and are
trying hard to hide from them, hoping that the owners will forget many
years of deceit. They refuse to send any details about the activities
they allowed on this land, despite their internet claims of having a
good relationship with the owners, and having control of the property.

So that's it folks!

All we can do is wait and see how far the owners are willing to go to
get justice for the injustices done to them.


Alan, AKA The Bogeyman, AKA Alan.

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[a***@gmail.com]

Hmmm, so it seems the few have queered the pitch for everyone else
then? As usual.

[rogerthedodger]

Post by a***@gmail.com
Hmmm, so it seems the few have queered the pitch for everyone else
then? As usual.

Except that the pitch was fine for 19 years ish !

I wonder what the WCMS committee stance is though??

Rogerthedodger

[p***@seaford2.freeserve.co.uk]

If they have had unchallenged access for 19 years could they claim
right of way? Pete

[Roger Cook]

Post by p***@seaford2.freeserve.co.uk
If they have had unchallenged access for 19 years could they claim
right of way? Pete

Good question, but they were challenged, and apparantly lied to
everyone asking them if they had a right to be there.
Trespass is one thing, deception is another.

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[a***@gmail.com]

Yes, maybe Roger knows something, I am still awaiting his challenge for
part 2 of the game:-)

[rogerthedodger]

Post by a***@gmail.com
Yes, maybe Roger knows something, I am still awaiting his challenge for
part 2 of the game:-)

Sorry I don't know much about this except what I heard at the NAMHO conference week-end at Juniper
Lodge. I understand that local cavers / mining enthusiasts are trying softly softly, but the feeling
was that it was going to be hard to sort access.

I hope it can be sorted for the benefit of those who want to go into low grovelly chalk mines (I
haven't been in these, but that seemed to be the general consensus of what they are like - with
interesting bits of course - and a good deal of history too).

My 4d worth
Rogerthedodger

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by rogerthedodger

Post by a***@gmail.com
Yes, maybe Roger knows something, I am still awaiting his challenge for
part 2 of the game:-)

Sorry I don't know much about this except what I heard at the NAMHO conference week-end at Juniper
Lodge. I understand that local cavers / mining enthusiasts are trying softly softly, but the feeling
was that it was going to be hard to sort access.
I hope it can be sorted for the benefit of those who want to go into low grovelly chalk mines (I
haven't been in these, but that seemed to be the general consensus of what they are like - with
interesting bits of course - and a good deal of history too).
My 4d worth
Rogerthedodger

Actually I was referring to Roger Cook and his excellent postings.

Come on Mr C....I want to play !!!

[Roger Cook]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:40:08 GMT, "rogerthedodger"

Post by rogerthedodger

Post by a***@gmail.com
Yes, maybe Roger knows something, I am still awaiting his challenge for
part 2 of the game:-)

Sorry I don't know much about this except what I heard at the NAMHO conference week-end at Juniper
Lodge. I understand that local cavers / mining enthusiasts are trying softly softly, but the feeling
was that it was going to be hard to sort access.
I hope it can be sorted for the benefit of those who want to go into low grovelly chalk mines (I
haven't been in these, but that seemed to be the general consensus of what they are like - with
interesting bits of course - and a good deal of history too).
My 4d worth
Rogerthedodger

I only know what I have been told by one of the owners, and from what
I have read on the Internet on the various club and individuals'
accounts of their actions.

WCMS laid claim to the access rights of Quarry Dean Farm, Merstham,
Surrey in or around 1991 when they applied for charity status, and
arround the time that one of the owners moved away from overlooking
the land.
They have been asked (by the owners and their solicitors) to show any
prooof of WCMS having any access agreements with any owner of Quarry
Dean Farm, be he/she a past or current owner.
WCMS have failed to supply any proof that they could use these peoples
lands, and for this reason EVERYONE has been refused access, not just
WCMS, but absolutely everyone.
You would have thought that if WCMS had access arangements in the past
with these owners, then it would be an easy matter to get it again?
From what I understand, access may eventually be allowed, but all the
time that WCMS continue to be difficult the area will remain closed.

Basically the access situation is dependant on WCMS sorting out their
mess. The softly softly approach has so far encouraged the owners to
use solicitors. I do not think that it works for WCMS, perhaps they
should try talking to the people who's land they have been using,
instead of burying their heads in the sand? If they keep bent over
like this they will get their arses kicked!

If you go looking for activities that have gone on at Quarry Dean
Farm, you will find numerous accounts of visits by and arranged by
WCMS. These include NAMHO trips, HPA visits, Scout camping, christmas
dinners, "Illicit Xmas party" (as featured on the WCMS website) where
alcohol consumption was condoned underground, and advertised openly.

Go on, if you get time, take a long look at what has gone on there,
and consider how an owner might get a little bit upset (if they had no
knowledge of the activities) and might take legal action against
everyone responsible. You might even agree that they should stop all
access for everyone until it gets resolved.

Now then, if WCMS had the arangements that they have claimed to have
had, then the owners would not be upset, and would not be requiring
anything of them. Solicitors would not be involved, other charities
would not be involved, and access would still be allowed.
Go figure it out.


Alan, AKA The Bogeyman, AKA Alan.




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[Roger Cook]

Post by a***@gmail.com
Yes, maybe Roger knows something, I am still awaiting his challenge for
part 2 of the game:-)

Hi Alexander,
Part 2? about the combination? Try pdf files, Year 2005, minutes.



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[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Roger Cook

Post by a***@gmail.com
Yes, maybe Roger knows something, I am still awaiting his challenge for
part 2 of the game:-)

Hi Alexander,
Part 2? about the combination? Try pdf files, Year 2005, minutes.

Thank you, I assume Google UK is my friend...:)

Post by Roger Cook
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[Roger Cook]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by Roger Cook

Post by a***@gmail.com
Yes, maybe Roger knows something, I am still awaiting his challenge for
part 2 of the game:-)

Hi Alexander,
Part 2? about the combination? Try pdf files, Year 2005, minutes.

Thank you, I assume Google UK is my friend...:)

Post by Roger Cook
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Alexander,
I think that they have removed the original file, at long last! So
you might pick it up in a search engine that holds cached pages? It is
from a newsletter, 3 July 2005
The passage reads:
"The loft, which has some tackle in, now has a very simple
combination lock. The number is 050. Which, 50 being the
year the club was set up. Just line the numbers up and press
the top button. Please ensure the loft is locked after use."

There is a link to the location of the house on multimap too, just to
make sure that any would be thief can help themselves with ease.

It is this sort of stupidity that makes insurance costs rise.
It may have been more sensible to arrange for people using the house
to phone when they arrived to get the combination, but hey, who am I
to judge?
We can only wonder why a club would let the world know exactly where
it leaves it tackle, and the combination to the lock?

Alan, AKA The Bogeyman, AKA Alan.





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[MartinM]

Post by Roger Cook
It is this sort of stupidity that makes insurance costs rise.
It may have been more sensible to arrange for people using the house
to phone when they arrived to get the combination, but hey, who am I
to judge?
We can only wonder why a club would let the world know exactly where
it leaves it tackle, and the combination to the lock?

so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)

[a***@gmail.com]

so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)

Whether it is locked or not is irrelevant. The fact they advertise the
location and combination, would encourage any small time crook or
junkie looking to make a quick buck.

You don't leave a mobile phone on a car seat, and not expect to come
back and find your car window unsmashed now do you?

[MartinM]

Post by MartinM
so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)
Whether it is locked or not is irrelevant. The fact they advertise the
location and combination, would encourage any small time crook or
junkie looking to make a quick buck.

well as I see it advertising the contents of a secure location is
little different from having a sign outside Dixons saying "DVD players
in stock"
Perhaps the reason they kept their tackle locked away is to prevent
other clubs using it; it is not unknown to rent out huts. None of the
above is covered by the BCA scheme anyway.

[Roger Cook]

Post by MartinM

Post by MartinM
so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)
Whether it is locked or not is irrelevant. The fact they advertise the
location and combination, would encourage any small time crook or
junkie looking to make a quick buck.

well as I see it advertising the contents of a secure location is
little different from having a sign outside Dixons saying "DVD players
in stock"
Perhaps the reason they kept their tackle locked away is to prevent
other clubs using it; it is not unknown to rent out huts. None of the
above is covered by the BCA scheme anyway.

How does giving the world the combination stop others using the kit?

Alan, AKA confused




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[MartinM]

Post by Roger Cook

Post by MartinM

Post by MartinM
so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)
Whether it is locked or not is irrelevant. The fact they advertise the
location and combination, would encourage any small time crook or
junkie looking to make a quick buck.

well as I see it advertising the contents of a secure location is
little different from having a sign outside Dixons saying "DVD players
in stock"
Perhaps the reason they kept their tackle locked away is to prevent
other clubs using it; it is not unknown to rent out huts. None of the
above is covered by the BCA scheme anyway.

How does giving the world the combination stop others using the kit?

common courtesy when visiting another club's hut.

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by MartinM

Post by Roger Cook

Post by MartinM

Post by MartinM
so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)
Whether it is locked or not is irrelevant. The fact they advertise the
location and combination, would encourage any small time crook or
junkie looking to make a quick buck.

well as I see it advertising the contents of a secure location is
little different from having a sign outside Dixons saying "DVD players
in stock"
Perhaps the reason they kept their tackle locked away is to prevent
other clubs using it; it is not unknown to rent out huts. None of the
above is covered by the BCA scheme anyway.

How does giving the world the combination stop others using the kit?

common courtesy when visiting another club's hut.

Common courtesy? Pray tell...they posted the combination?

[a***@gmail.com]

Anyhow, think I am closer to the mark now!!

http://www.cscc.org.uk/AccomodationFrameset.htm

This is the page link with streetmap details to the clubhouses in the
Mendips, n'est pas?

As for the link I assume it is either the british caving club or the
Mendips one.....8.5 now Roger, and some more pissed off cavers eh?

[Roger Cook]

Post by MartinM
common courtesy when visiting another club's hut.

If some clubs are not courteous enough to ask the landowners for
permission to use certain lands, then what makes you think they give a
damn about other peoples property?

Alan, AKA The Bogeyman, AKA Alan

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[a***@gmail.com]

Ah well, the game has been fun, the pitch has been queered. Everyone is
happy now.

Been fun playing my part, all enjoyed...

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by MartinM

Post by Roger Cook
It is this sort of stupidity that makes insurance costs rise.
It may have been more sensible to arrange for people using the house
to phone when they arrived to get the combination, but hey, who am I
to judge?
We can only wonder why a club would let the world know exactly where
it leaves it tackle, and the combination to the lock?

so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)

OK, another try....worthy of a 7 out of 10 maybe?

www.cscc.org.uk/Documents/CSCC_2004.05.08_Minutes.pdf

:)

[MartinM]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by MartinM

Post by Roger Cook
It is this sort of stupidity that makes insurance costs rise.
It may have been more sensible to arrange for people using the house
to phone when they arrived to get the combination, but hey, who am I
to judge?
We can only wonder why a club would let the world know exactly where
it leaves it tackle, and the combination to the lock?

so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)

OK, another try....worthy of a 7 out of 10 maybe?

And what is relevant in this document?

[Roger Cook]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by MartinM

Post by Roger Cook
It is this sort of stupidity that makes insurance costs rise.
It may have been more sensible to arrange for people using the house
to phone when they arrived to get the combination, but hey, who am I
to judge?
We can only wonder why a club would let the world know exactly where
it leaves it tackle, and the combination to the lock?

so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)

OK, another try....worthy of a 7 out of 10 maybe?
www.cscc.org.uk/Documents/CSCC_2004.05.08_Minutes.pdf
:)

Worth about 8, but not the CSCC. However the link to the group can be
found from CSCC. You need to look for one that has been around for
about 50 years.
You will not find the original document now, and I suspect that a new
lock has been installed, and any combination will not appear on the
internet.
It goes to show that the internet can be educational ;)

Alan, AKA The Bogeyman, AKA Alan.

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[Andrew]

Post by Roger Cook

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by MartinM

Post by Roger Cook
It is this sort of stupidity that makes insurance costs rise.
It may have been more sensible to arrange for people using the house
to phone when they arrived to get the combination, but hey, who am I
to judge?
We can only wonder why a club would let the world know exactly where
it leaves it tackle, and the combination to the lock?

so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)

OK, another try....worthy of a 7 out of 10 maybe?
www.cscc.org.uk/Documents/CSCC_2004.05.08_Minutes.pdf
:)

Worth about 8, but not the CSCC. However the link to the group can be
found from CSCC. You need to look for one that has been around for
about 50 years.
You will not find the original document now, and I suspect that a new
lock has been installed, and any combination will not appear on the
internet.
It goes to show that the internet can be educational ;)
Alan, AKA The Bogeyman, AKA Alan.
--
Yes the net can unearth all sorts of things, seems you have showed up a clubs fateful error and I trust they have sorted this issuse now and all the equipment is still safe!!

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Roger Cook

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by MartinM

Post by Roger Cook
It is this sort of stupidity that makes insurance costs rise.
It may have been more sensible to arrange for people using the house
to phone when they arrived to get the combination, but hey, who am I
to judge?
We can only wonder why a club would let the world know exactly where
it leaves it tackle, and the combination to the lock?

so the actual cabin is unlocked is it? (sorry P)

OK, another try....worthy of a 7 out of 10 maybe?
www.cscc.org.uk/Documents/CSCC_2004.05.08_Minutes.pdf
:)

Worth about 8, but not the CSCC. However the link to the group can be
found from CSCC. You need to look for one that has been around for
about 50 years.
You will not find the original document now, and I suspect that a new
lock has been installed, and any combination will not appear on the
internet.
It goes to show that the internet can be educational ;)
Alan, AKA The Bogeyman, AKA Alan.
--
Yes the net can unearth all sorts of things, seems you have showed up a clubs fateful error and I trust they have sorted this issuse now and all the equipment is still safe!!

Well if anything did get stolen it is their fault for putting the
information online in the first place. The net is like a big public
library, you would'nt leave your mobile phone details and visa card
details just lying around now, would you?

[Roger Cook]

On 23 Sep 2005 23:21:24 -0700, "Andrew"

Post by Roger Cook
Yes the net can unearth all sorts of things, seems you have showed up a clubs fateful error and I trust they have sorted this issuse now and all the equipment is still safe!!

I hope so too. I know that the page has been removed, and is no longer
cached by Google,MSN etc, so the risks are somewhat reduced. I hope
they have also changed the "lock". A combination lock with only 3
digits takes just a few minutes to work through the numbers. Hopefully
a more secure area and lock have been found, and they will only let
those who need to know about it, know.
The up-sides are, that we wont all be tempted to go after gear on
Ebay, that could have come from this place, had they not done
something about it, and the people who own the gear can rest easier.


Alan, AKA The Bogeyman, Aka Alan.


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[a***@gmail.com]

I do believe quarry dean is now finished for all access.

I am sure mr Tierney of croydon didn't help matters, as didnt other
londoners.

No drinking at quarry dean!

[Andrew]

Post by a***@gmail.com
I do believe quarry dean is now finished for all access.
I am sure mr Tierney of croydon didn't help matters, as didnt other
londoners.
No drinking at quarry dean!

For Your information Alexander, Andrew Tierney had nothing to do with
the problems at Merstham.

[a***@gmail.com]

Yet I recall a picture of said man sat above a entrance shaft at said
location with a big smirk on his face, past the danger sign, or was
that all just bravado?

[a***@gmail.com]

Yet I recall a picture of said man sat above a entrance shaft at said
location with a big smirk on his face, past the danger sign, or was
that all just bravado?

[a***@gmail.com]

http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/bunk/ch/e170803/33.htm

And we see here Andy Belcher has made his contributions to cane hill?

[malc]

Post by a***@gmail.com
http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/bunk/ch/e170803/33.htm
And we see here Andy Belcher has made his contributions to cane hill?

Your point being? I'm getting a little bit bored of this thread so can
you please clarify what your allegations are supposed to be?

--
Malc

[Andy]

Alexander Mills wrote: "And we see here Andy Belcher has made his
contributions to cane hill?"

FYI
that is another site in the area, I have never been to Cane Hill in my
life, not my thing.
Do not be confused by the number of people on mentioned or posting on
this thread who coincidentally are called Andy or Andrew, none of them
are me, I have no direct interest or involvement in this debate.
Andy

[Andy]

Alexander Mills wrote: "And we see here Andy Belcher has made his
contributions to cane hill?"

FYI
that is another site in the area, I have never been to Cane Hill in my
life, not my thing.
Do not be confused by the number of people on mentioned or posting on
this thread who coincidentally are called Andy or Andrew, none of them
are me, I have no interest in this debate.
AndyB

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Andy
Alexander Mills wrote: "And we see here Andy Belcher has made his
contributions to cane hill?"
FYI
that is another site in the area, I have never been to Cane Hill in my
life, not my thing.
Do not be confused by the number of people on mentioned or posting on
this thread who coincidentally are called Andy or Andrew, none of them
are me, I have no interest in this debate.
AndyB

So the information on simon cornwells site is erroneous?
You never illegally accessed cane hill bunker, or was it Mr T?

[Huss]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by Andy
Alexander Mills wrote: "And we see here Andy Belcher has made his
contributions to cane hill?"
FYI
that is another site in the area, I have never been to Cane Hill in my
life, not my thing.
Do not be confused by the number of people on mentioned or posting on
this thread who coincidentally are called Andy or Andrew, none of them
are me, I have no interest in this debate.
AndyB

So the information on simon cornwells site is erroneous?
You never illegally accessed cane hill bunker, or was it Mr T?

Look, I don't know who you are, you don't know who I am, and I don't GAD
about either. What I GAD about is that your contributions are in danger
of elevating the S -> N ratio in this group to a degree that will
eventually destroy it.

Don't take my comments as an attack, don't take them personally, it's
just that I've always enjoyed lurking in this group and want to for a
lot longer.

People post up useful and interesting stuff here. Maybe you'd like to do
the same, and maybe things would settle down again.

HTH.

HAND.

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by Huss

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by Andy
Alexander Mills wrote: "And we see here Andy Belcher has made his
contributions to cane hill?"
FYI
that is another site in the area, I have never been to Cane Hill in my
life, not my thing.
Do not be confused by the number of people on mentioned or posting on
this thread who coincidentally are called Andy or Andrew, none of them
are me, I have no interest in this debate.
AndyB

So the information on simon cornwells site is erroneous?
You never illegally accessed cane hill bunker, or was it Mr T?

Look, I don't know who you are, you don't know who I am, and I don't GAD
about either. What I GAD about is that your contributions are in danger
of elevating the S -> N ratio in this group to a degree that will
eventually destroy it.
Don't take my comments as an attack, don't take them personally, it's
just that I've always enjoyed lurking in this group and want to for a
lot longer.
People post up useful and interesting stuff here. Maybe you'd like to do
the same, and maybe things would settle down again.
HTH.
HAND.
--
Huss

OK, Fair enough, seeing as the offending site is now seemingly offline,
I will let it lie. The damage has been done, nothing more to say.

On the lighter note, anyone into actually draining?

[MartinM]

Post by a***@gmail.com
http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/bunk/ch/e170803/33.htm
And we see here Andy Belcher has made his contributions to cane hill?

the last visit by WCMS to Coulsdon (not Cane Hill) bunker was on the
invitation of the son of the former tenant, and it was very informative.

[malc]

Post by MartinM

Post by a***@gmail.com
http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/bunk/ch/e170803/33.htm
And we see here Andy Belcher has made his contributions to cane hill?

the last visit by WCMS to Coulsdon (not Cane Hill) bunker was on the
invitation of the son of the former tenant, and it was very informative.

He won't listen, you know.

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by malc

Post by MartinM

Post by a***@gmail.com
http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/bunk/ch/e170803/33.htm
And we see here Andy Belcher has made his contributions to cane hill?

the last visit by WCMS to Coulsdon (not Cane Hill) bunker was on the
invitation of the son of the former tenant, and it was very informative.

He won't listen, you know.
--
Malc

That's fair enough, but then shouldnt Mr Belcher take it up with simon
cornwell?

[MartinM]

Post by a***@gmail.com

Post by malc

Post by MartinM

Post by a***@gmail.com
http://www.simoncornwell.com/urbex/bunk/ch/e170803/33.htm
And we see here Andy Belcher has made his contributions to cane hill?

the last visit by WCMS to Coulsdon (not Cane Hill) bunker was on the
invitation of the son of the former tenant, and it was very informative.

He won't listen, you know.
--
Malc

That's fair enough, but then shouldnt Mr Belcher take it up with simon
cornwell?

Coulsdon bunker has never had any access issues, the entrance was open
and ungated, and on public land (until it was capped in connection with
the A23 building work)

[Bored to death]

It seems to be sadly doumented here and there on various websites
(Coulsdon) as a 'deep level' Shelter, which is (as we know is complete
rubbish, but folk will try to convince us this is the case)Coulsdon,
Pahhh,, deep level indeed...it's barely 4ft from the suface!......get a
grip some of You webmasters....lol..

[Nick Catford]

Post by Bored to death
It seems to be sadly doumented here and there on various websites
(Coulsdon) as a 'deep level' Shelter, which is (as we know is complete
rubbish, but folk will try to convince us this is the case)Coulsdon,
Pahhh,, deep level indeed...it's barely 4ft from the suface!......get a
grip some of You webmasters....lol..

In places yes but in other places it's much deeper as it goes under the
hill. At the ventilation shaft it is quite deep. It was known by Surrey
County Council as a deep shelter during WW2 as opposed to the traditional
trench shelters which were very shallow. There are a number of those that
can bee seen close to Coulsdon for example on the green at Woldingham, on
the green next to Caterham police station, on Westway Common at Caterham on
the Hill. These are all now sealed. I opened them all up some years ago
with permission from the council. There is another in Carterham that might
still be open it's on the west side of Stafford Road about half way along.
The houses here are built on a bank above the road. At road level there are
steps down to a shelter in this bank. I'm sure the first person to find it
will report back here.


Nick

[a***@gmail.com]

It looks interesting.

SO the tales of patients being down there are baloney then?

[MartinM]

Post by a***@gmail.com
It looks interesting.
SO the tales of patients being down there are baloney then?

The entrance is not even anywhere near Cane Hill; it's only use since
the war was as a motor / motorbike repair facility and a lens
manufacturer AFAIK. A reputable source maintains that it was originally
constructed as a mortuary (Paul S fyi Nick)

[a***@gmail.com]

It looks damn creepy.

I knew about the lens manufacturer, and bike equipment, but never knew
it was originally constructed as a mortuary...

[Nick Catford]

A reputable source maintains that it was originally

Post by MartinM
constructed as a mortuary (Paul S fyi Nick)

I've heard this theory but I'm unsure about it. I will ask PS tomorrow. I
believe there is a file on it's construction during WW2 in the PRO. The
file also contained a large plan which I have a copy of. It related to all
the deep shelters that were to be built in Surrey. These included
Riddlesdown (still there, now a factory), Chipstead Valley Road (gone),
Foxenden Quarry, Guildford (still there), Ashley Road, Epsom (still there),
Epsom Golf Course (still there but we failed to dig into it last year)

Nick

[a***@gmail.com]

Having watched creep , I was most impressed by Belsize.